USMC Reverting Back to Long Time Favourite

The Marine Corps is bringing back the Colt .45 pistol in a modern upgraded variant called the M45. I am assuming that this change from M9 to M45 was because of the stopping power of the round. However, does it make sense to bring back a seven-shot .45 caliber pistol when there are other pistols of the same caliber with higher capacity magazines? I do suppose they chose it for its symbolism as well, but that does not seem like a factor any military would take into account. I'd like to see it in PR ASAP as I strongly dislike the M9.



News Article with the Story

its hideous. the 1911 still looks 1000x times nicer than that! They probably wanna keep their weapons american as well

The US Military goes for practicality and functionality over looks. They use equipment that gets the job done, not so much stuff that looks nice. Take the M16 for example, it's a 40 year old weapon, most militaries would've easily swapped their piece out a long time ago once they developed the capacity to do it and it now just took us 40 years to even begin the process of searching for a replacement.

The A4-M16 is the perfected version of it and it is easily ranked among one of the best ARs in the world in terms of functionality and power. Besides, pistols are more symbolic than anything else. Using a pistol is very impractical as you really don't want to be in the short range needed to effectively have any real impact, that'll put you in danger, and seeing as how only specialists and officers use them, it's safe to assume they won't be made in such massive numbers as say, the M16. They probably chose the pistol for its intimidation factor and of course, the stopping power. Since the USMC and the US Military in general trains in marksmanship, they probably count on the skills of the individual soldier to make the shot while not blindly firing at a target without success, that way they can cut back on magazine size, which would save for cost. No need to use excess if not needed.

-Crenshaw

I think that pistol looks awesome, but that's just me. I'm also quite a fan of .45 calibre pistols.

at a rough guess if you have to use a pistol on a battlefield your dead already, bit like a bayonet really. 7 shots 9 shots 9mm .45 ACP makes no difference.
4 x the price of the civilian version is colt taking the piss out of the American tax payer that much is very simple and in that article the implication that Beretta are solely Italian is misleading, the M9 is made almost exclusively in the states, so if the US military go to colt wholesale it will be American jobs lost not Italian.

flag waving taken too far imo.

funny the police have no issue with using 9mm and lets face it that is the natural home of the side arm.

speedhound1-WYD- wrote:at a rough guess if you have to use a pistol on a battlefield your dead already, bit like a bayonet really.

its surprising how much the british army use bayonets in afghanistan actually, more so than you would think

Dude are you serious?

90% of firefights your not seeing the enemy half the time there just suppressing were they think the fire is coming from. The only guys getting kills these days are the pilots/gunners of CAS and marksmen/snipers.

- Everyone is pulling out in 2014 so maybe they just want to finish of the war with the colt? Next week we might see an article saying The British Army have decided to follow the USMC and start carrying a side arm. After watching several James Bond movies they decided on the Walther PPK.


xD

I think he means just attaching the bayonet not actually killing an enemy

O

Desert Eagle 50.cal............ nuff said....

.50 you mean

- Would love to see any man even try to fire a 50.cal pistol LMAO!

I couldn't even lift this f*****g thing

The police don't have a problem using a Pistol because they aren't facing enemies that wear body armor or engage them out from 50-100 meters. In fact, 99% of the crime in the US that involves a gun (which is very rare mind you, regardless of what the media tries to say about guns, those biased sons-of-bitches) is done by a pistol. In fact, the only crime I can even remember in the last 10 years was when 2 guys robbed a bank and they had an arsenal equipped with body armor from head-to-toe and 7000 rounds of ammunition. Pistols and SI Shotguns couldn't do the job, so the SWAT came in with M16 rifles. Ever since then, all police units have at least 1 high powered rifle available. But I digress, they don't need to have a use for such a high powered weapon in most situations. If they did, there might be more problems going on than not having the right weapon.

-Crenshaw

your point being ? as i said it doesn't matter what pistol or ammunition you use when a battlefield enemy is miles away, if they are close enough for you to use a pistol you are in sh1t street.

It's all symbolic. As I stated earlier, it is extremely impractical to use a pistol. And as such, this replacement is probably cheaper in some way. It could even be for tradition sake. Battle is full of tradition. As much of it was lost in modern history, there is tradition there.

-Crenshaw

The best army in the world have never used a side-arm? so yer of course its symbolic.

Oh no, I'm sure they used them a lot, otherwise there would be no need for them at all. A Pistol is generally seen as a sign of authority, that's why officers have them, it's seen as a great dishonor to have your side-arm taken from you as an officer by a superior because it means you have lost your status, trust, command. I mean, let's be real, anyone in their right mind would choose a rifle over a pistol because it has pretty much excellence in every area.

-Crenshaw

Assault rifle/rifle for now is always going to be the main working tool and a train soldier can switch for fresh mag during speed reload similarly fast as he draws his side arm. So why would he reach for his side arm in the first place ?

The only reason is the failure of his main weapon system or shortage of ammo. Some might want to reach for it in very tight spaces where maneuvering with even m4 is difficult but that's a risky trade of. What you really want form your backup weapon is it to be light and save space/weight for your main weapon ammo and in the same time being able to do the job[same goes for a tactical knife].

Is for example HK UPS 45ACP more capable in terms of ammo, with a good service record and lighter by around 15%-20%...hell yes but it is not US made. Are there other companies in US who do make good guns ?

Smith & Wesson makes cool M&P45 pistol which has some nice features but it doesn't even stand close to 1911 service record. For many out there in the theater that is what matters most, that the gun has proven itself.

What about Springfield XDM-45ACP you will ask... Well it is a sweat, glock-like looking gun even more capable with 13+1 rounds and probably very reliable but neither of those companies by itself have capability to field large amounts in relatively short time so the Colt is rather effortless [not to say bad] choice that fills many needs of army men and politicians.

British Army have never used side-arms.

speedhound1-WYD- wrote:at a rough guess if you have to use a pistol on a battlefield your dead already, bit like a bayonet really. 7 shots 9 shots 9mm .45 ACP makes no difference.
4 x the price of the civilian version is colt taking the piss out of the American tax payer that much is very simple and in that article the implication that Beretta are solely Italian is misleading, the M9 is made almost exclusively in the states, so if the US military go to colt wholesale it will be American jobs lost not Italian.

flag waving taken too far imo.

funny the police have no issue with using 9mm and lets face it that is the natural home of the side arm.

It does have difference. You are talking about "open field" battlefield where range of engagement in around 100-300m for assault rifle and ~800 for battle rifle aka marksman.

What when fight gets in to a town where you will engage on very close distances up to 100m top with an average distance around 5-15m in the buildings?

Speed ... you sound so pessimistic... you are not dead until you actually die so as long as you keep fighting and have means to do it you are very much alive.

Some people with knife would open you from top to bottom quicker than you would draw your gun, do not under estimate guy with knife [or bayonet:P]... again in urban area distance is different than on the field. Even in Vietnam op force learned very quick that if you get close to yank's their m16 advantage over ak47 med range accuracy drastically diminish so they got very good at getting close.

Don't forget that now days it is a terrorism that we are supposed to be afraid of not an open war between countries and you know where the terrorist like to attack...

.45 ACP vs 9mm debate goes and goes but the truth be told, it is obvious that any caliber round even .22 can kill and well aimed shot in head, throat or artery and heart is fatal.

The question is how much time to die does the bad guy have. When shot with 9mm faster but smaller round you might kill some one but you will not put them instantly down [unless head shot], where with .45 ACP shooting in the center mass is enough because power that the round delivers when contacting is shocking, literally.

The movie I once posted that was deleted where Vietnam veteran with m1 kills officer armed with m9...On the final veteran approach toward the cop, the police man fired [and hit] few shots in the stomach/guts area of that [no doubt hyped on adrenaline] veteran guy but that did not stop bad guy from firing that last, fatal shot in the cops head.

There was debate going on below in comments and there were some claiming to be in service and used .45 ACP with instant effect on the target after even one round fired in the guts.

For those who are already stacked on 9mm, practiced with it and are good with it switching caliber is like heresy but those who just both their first .40 S&W pistol or even straight .45 ACP will always advocate for the power of their choice.

With police using 9mm you are kidding right? Since that shooting pictured in movie 44 Minutes US police can carry m4 rifle and most of them by now [9years later] already got one ready in their car, second in the boot and third just for practicing at their home.

And again.. yes well aimed shot is going to kill but do you have an ability to aim well under stress, pain, possible blood loss,perhaps life of your beloved being at risk, low light conditions... all that adds up.

Jay Scott wrote:British Army have never used side-arms.

Army you mean regular soldiers aka cannon-fodder [maybe Queen does not want to spend extra on another supply line :> ]

SAS always had a side arm ...

http://www.eliteukforces.info/special-air-service/weapons/browning-high-power.php

"Fleet Protection Group Royal Marines (FPGRM) carry Browning HPs as sidearms when on ship boarding operations." [maybe because of extremely tight spaces ???]



also "16 Air Assault's Pathfinder Platoon have recently (2007) been issued with P226 sidearms." -hmmm

A member of Task Force Black (SAS / SFSG) pictured in Iraq (2003-2009), can you notice something black on his chest ?



and btw. "- Everyone is pulling out in 2014 so" ...so there is going to be another war. Look the Land of Damascus [Syria] in upcoming time and google Young Turks so you see how they started 1 WW with Armenian holocaust and what is going to happen now is [CENSORED]

i think this thread has gone way off track, look the point is 'do the marines need to go back to 1911 ?' and by any logical conclusion its a no.

the arguments about calibre and power are irrelevant even though that is what the protagonists of argument for the 1911 suggest.

any notion that 'Americans' will benefit with jobs etc is null and void as it will be other Americans that will potentially lose their jobs not Italians.

the links between pistols and officers is simply that most officers in most armies or militias in the past rode horses and as such used single handed weapons.

well horses are even more ceremonial than pistols, should the USMC start issuing horses again as well? (mind you for the price colt are asking they could throw in a free horse with your four times over priced side arm offer)

I'd personally pay to see a USMC officer strolling around Fallujah with a cutlass.

Jokes aside, that pistol is so ugly in that colour, the Military Fashion Police had better be all over it. Leave the M9 alone.

Jay Scott wrote:British Army have never used side-arms.

It's not general issue, but saying they've never used side-arms is stretching it.

speedhound1-WYD- wrote:i think this thread has gone way off track, look the point is 'do the marines need to go back to 1911 ?' and by any logical conclusion its a no.

the arguments about calibre and power are irrelevant even though that is what the protagonists of argument for the 1911 suggest.

any notion that 'Americans' will benefit with jobs etc is null and void as it will be other Americans that will potentially lose their jobs not Italians.

the links between pistols and officers is simply that most officers in most armies or militias in the past rode horses and as such used single handed weapons.

well horses are even more ceremonial than pistols, should the USMC start issuing horses again as well? (mind you for the price colt are asking they could throw in a free horse with your four times over priced side arm offer)

You are right... and who saying they need to go back to 1911?

but now come on, fallow me to the land of light

Just look, listen:

M-45 MEUSOC is based on M1911 design by John Browning, truly an ak47 in the world of pistols but it[M45] is not by any definition outdated. In fact 1911 was adopted to the XXI century purpose in the late 1980's and that's how M45 was born. What is so special about this design you will ask but I will get to that in a bit, first lets look at the M45 design itself:





and the good old 1911



See any differences ?

How about Picatinny rail that is a standard for all sort of accessories like lasers, ir or led lights, etc ?

Noticed ambidextrous safety?

Do you see how they shaved off as much weight as possible by things like empty cocking hammer ?

Interchangeable grip to adjust to size of shooters hand.

Sights that are higher than standard 1911 sights for usage with silencers [you just swap the barrel for threaded and you good to go on night ops with your issued service pistol]



Internal parts were also upgraded. "The revised parts list included barrels, bushings, link pins, sear springs, ejectors, firing pin stops, mainspring housings and mainsprings"

So you see this is in some sense completely new gun but with the idea of J. Browning still alive in it.

The argument about caliber is always relevant, if it wouldn't be why would the troops use 5.56 and 7.62x51 for different purposes ? or why are the long range sniper rifles chambered with .338 Lapua not with 9mm ?

In early 1980's US army wanted to switch from over 25 different side arms for one and every thing was going towards 1911 until it was announced that the new sidearm would be chambered in the NATO standard 9mm cartridge.

So the main reason for 9mm being in service in US army for so long was because NATO wanted it. And good old[read corrupted] NATO didn't had a problem with a report that was showing [on paper only] how 9mm cartridge is superior to .45 at 50m [typical engagement distance for handgun is 25m but hey 9mm stats look better at longer distance]

All that job talking makes me think you just don't like Colt as a company but you keep raving at the gun as being bad.

I would come up with few reasons for officers having pistol but your one with horses just disarms me as much as your negligence of how useful horses really are

You know that for example at 2 WW officers had more things to do than fighting. He was making sure that everyone else in hi squad was is in the right position, facing right direction, got ammo, know orders, etc. Remember that there were no com's, so officer really didn't had time to take rifle and engage because he was constantly occupied with something.

For similar reason grunts were not issued with pistols because they had not time to use it, they would have to be trained with it, they would need ammo for it, parts and fact is that over those wars soldier didn't live long enough to use all that equipment so lot of that would be wasted, most perished from automatic fire and mortars/arty before firing their first shot or after days in trenches waiting.

Now days soldiers must be very mobile [like SF] and are encouraged to live longer and that's why it is better if they are provided with more tools to ensure they can stay alive.

And the horses... why not camels ? Camels are way more deadly...

Anyway two-handed weapon on a horse back is not a real issue for a trained individual and I bet any mongol warrior would tell you that as they were masters in shooting their bow from a riding horse.

Those guys for whom horses are the only way of transportation would laugh at your statement about horses being only for ceremonial usage.



But that's not an army you will say, those are some cave mans so no wonder they ride horses... Right but do you know, that high-tech air campaign was preceded by a very low-tech start to America's involvement in Afghanistan: the so-called horse soldiers.

Speed, do you think that just because you can drive car over the hill in PR you can do the same in Afghanistan ? ........reality check ! you can't :>

"Members of U.S. Special Forces ride horseback into Afghanistan in the early days of Operation Enduring Freedom. Horses were often the only way to travel over long distances in the remote parts of Northern Afghanistan. (DoD photos)"



Surprised ?

Now back to the gun, you say this is 4 times overpriced. 22,5mil / 12k ~ 1875$. Ok, 2k would be rather a lot for a gun but do you think that US Army is buying just gun with 2 mags and manual in a fancy box ? They usually buy a whole package. Passibly around 6-10 or more mags per soldier, rail mounted light and laser, hell it might even include additional threaded barrel but most important it includes rebuilding of gun over the training period, and here are some more fact for you about that:

"A Marine operator may shoot as many as 80,000 rounds from this pistol during a training-cycle and subsequent deployment. However, it is more common for a Marine to return the pistol... for a rebuild after 10,000 rounds have been fired"

So he returns his pistol 7-8 time for complete rebuild that only frame stays the same... Still think its a bad deal since it is only 4 times higher than single unit price ? And now to why 1911 is so special:

"There are frames in the USMC inventory that have had as many as 500,000 rounds fired through them."

"The Officer In Command... stated that the M1911 is "the only pistol that can stand up to this use"."

In use for over 100 years, proven, reliable, accurate, capable and updated... just a perfect side-arms.

Oh right... and "ugly".

Ok Bownty I know a coloration that would suit you perfectly, cheer! you are going to be the first who puts a pony on his 1911 grip:



and with more seriousness, that is beautiful desert earth or simply tan coloration on M45 and it is perfectly in line with where the current development in camo is heading.









I know that you Speed would like to see battlefield look like this:



and you Bownty like that:



but Americans got their own style... no mater if they are military



or civilians...



and there is nothing wrong about it. [Right?]

glock 21 SF - 45. ACP, 13 rounds mag (nearly 2x 1911). Best compromise between m9 and 1911

Jay Scott wrote:British Army have never used side-arms.

British army has always used side arms - officers with pistols since way
before the napoleonic wars (pistols are side arms swords are main (required)
arms), WWI, WWII, etc. Pistols were often issued to less important
personel as a cheaper alternative to rifles, eg remf's (this has
changed in the past 50-75 years). Pistols as side arms are issued to
RMP, officers, and as a urgent operational requirement for afghan.

but that is completely false, officers DO carry sidearms, in fact until recently (well post D-Day WWII) it was uncommon for an officer to carry a rifle as a rifle denotes fighting whereas an officer should be thinking, planning and organising his men not being one of them and engaging. Royal Military Police who are not in the UK carry a sidearm, personelle behind the lines eg those at General HQ, or other staff offices carried sidearms as they were cheaper to equip. In the napoleonic wars the main arm of a british army Officer was his sword, to lose (ie have taken from him) his sword was one of the most humiliating things that could happen to an Officer then, however, most officers equiped themselves with a pistol as a sidearm or horse pistol. Furthermore pistols have been introduced into afghan as an urget operational requirement because an assault rifle (bull pup or not) can be too cumbersome to utilise in close quaters.

Am talking about are troops in Afghan D

kk fair enough, officers have always had them, soldiers didn't used to have them out there but they have been introduced to most senior NCO's now.

Cool cool

- You coming on for a game soon?

yeah just coming on now - just got in from most boring day of work ever (been sat using my phone for past 3 hours)

Jay Scott wrote:http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081116082254AAXST5n

Hey Scotty, you are such a joker. I bet you posted that to make me laugh

from the best answer:

"The British military carries a bull pup rifle (Magazine is behind the trigger, not infront of it) making it shorter and easier to use than the M16."

US military carries m4a1 which is also shorter and easier to use than the M16.

"This means that they don't need (At least that's what the strategists think) to carry the extra weight of a sidearm in order to be fulll effective when fighting in confined spaces."

I wonder what are names of those strategists. Any m4 operator will tell you that he will always use his assault rifle even when clearing houses and tight spaces before he reaches for a side arms. Confined space isn't exactly a main reason for carrying side arms.

"In the US military the sidearm is also used when the main weapon is out of amunition. "

No it isn't, well not in the first place as when main weapon is out of ammunition than first thing that a soldier does is to switch for a fresh mag or ask a buddy for a spare one.

What does a British soldier have when he is completely out of ammo? His bayonet and teahts [the last one according to T.Pratchett are very effective in very dark rooms]

"However, British soldiers are also trained from a rifle tradition rather than an assault riffle tradition. This means that their primiary objective is to make every round count rather than to put down as many rounds as possible onto an ennemy to surpress and kill them through weight of fire."

Now that is just there to make Americans look stupid, m4 doesn't even have full auto. Does not need a further comment. It is 2012 already... And they know you do not kill just by weight of fire... "Omg this fire is so heavy [but completely inaccurate] I think I will just die from a general shock, AAAA"

"Thus a British soldier is not exprected to run out of amunition therefore won't need (Again, in the opinions of the stratergists) a sidearm."

Yeah, strategists, because it sounds smarter right? No soldier is expected to run out of ammo, that is what logistic is for.

And truth why soldier in not being presented with another weapons system is because he is not expected to present initiative under all s**t that is being thrown at him on the battlefield therefore he does not need it. For most he only need to fallow orders and keep his only rifle straight enough when pulling the trigger.

Those who do show they think well under stress are quickly picked up by different special operations group within the military and they get their own side-arms issued no problem

Oh and btw... check this Croatian soldier who left his side arms at home because hes got bullpup rifle.



And here notice lack of side arms on right thigh of those Philippines soldiers with Steyr Aug.




Honestly one of more important reason why yanks love side-arms is because they are used to their main weapon failing under the hard weather conditions and it is one of most easy ways to feel safe and secure.

You might not see a holster on an European soldier leg because this is very Americans wild west style thing but it does not mean there isn't any gun concealed for exactly same reason.

Tell me what is faster if you get double feed in your rifle, to use it you have to check chamber, lock bolt to the rear, tilt your gun with ejection port towards the ground, eject the magazine, charge cocking handle to ensure all rounds are out, get the gun back in the check well, get new mag inserted because problem might be with previous mags lips... whuuu now you are ready to finally charge and fire your rifle or if you drop the rifle [its on the sling] and switch for the side-arms ?

Obviously distance matters, if you got some one to cover you while you deal with your rifle and the enemy is 200m away go for immediate action but if the guy is at the end of the corridor or trench that you just entered and your guns get that... you better work well with your fingers under stress if you don't have your secondary.

Mr.Arked wrote:glock 21 SF - 45. ACP, 13 rounds mag (nearly 2x 1911). Best compromise between m9 and 1911

Personally I would go for exactly same gun, light and powerful [a bit bulky with double stacked mag compared to slim single stacked mag 1911]

But more I research 1911 more I fall in love with that great design... here is something worth mentioning:

"Three range trips and almost 2,300 rounds into the test and it’s fair to say that some sacred cows are in danger of becoming hamburger. Stoppages? None. Break-in? Not necessary.

Ammo sensitivity? Three different FMJ-style rounds and two different JHPs without a problem have gone down the pipe. Magazine issues? Three different brands of magazines fed, fired, extracted, and ejected without hesitation. Expectations? Blown away.

In fact, it’s only fair to mention that by this round count during their respective tests both the Glock 17 and even my beloved HK P30 both experienced problems. They were resolved, sure, but no one expected them to have problems in the first place..."



http://pistol-training.com/archives/6942

do you shoot hand guns alchy ?, i've always wanted to but in Britain they are a class 5 firearm (forbidden except for a very very small minority, like museums for example)

as a cadet i shot plenty through the No.4 and FAL, they let me on the Bren as well and even once i was allowed to have a go on sterling smg (naughty but it was indoors and very out of sight !) hell i even had a weekend training on 81mm mortars, but even then pistols !!!! NO WAY !!!!!

i wouldn't mind taking up target with air pistols but even second hand prices for proper equipment are steep, so i'll just carry on waiting until one falls into my lap as it were. what i do know is that pistol shooting is probably the hardest of all fire arm disciplines.
this is what i've been waiting for but we can all wish can't we http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baikal_IZH-46M

I've even got me a 92FS Airgun Speed, what's your excuse? =P



Mine is silver, but that's the same model. Cost little over £110

Jay Scott wrote:http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081116082254AAXST5n

Stop trolling, Scotty. We know they're not general issue, but to say the British Army has never used pistols is incorrect.

Back to the topic: M9's suffer somewhat from limp-wristing (from experience and what I've read). Probably not going to have that problem with .45 ACP.

speedhound1-WYD- wrote:do you shoot hand guns alchy ?, i've always wanted to but in Britain they are a class 5 firearm (forbidden except for a very very small minority, like museums for example)

as a cadet i shot plenty through the No.4 and FAL, they let me on the Bren as well and even once i was allowed to have a go on sterling smg (naughty but it was indoors and very out of sight !) hell i even had a weekend training on 81mm mortars, but even then pistols !!!! NO WAY !!!!!

i wouldn't mind taking up target with air pistols but even second hand prices for proper equipment are steep, so i'll just carry on waiting until one falls into my lap as it were. what i do know is that pistol shooting is probably the hardest of all fire arm disciplines.
this is what i've been waiting for but we can all wish can't we http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baikal_IZH-46M

I have been shooting pistol and rifle since I was small kid in a shooting club and with my grandfather so even if I can't have one here right now[maybe in the future] I still think about it warmly[even more when I think about airsoft ]

Every where in Europe in general it is hard to have a firearms unless you are a part of some kind of shooting club. So that's your first stop and maybe they let you shot a gun if there is in house range ^^

Airsoft guns are also very cool especially RIF's. The good one cost around 150Ł Tokyo Marui brand, plastic but gas efficient and extremely accurate to like 25m easily. You can get steal one as well for stronger kick [blow-back]. Again around 100-150Ł for a good brand.

Unfortunately with cheep ones you might not get the right accuracy and fun. You also need to play some games on a registered field if you want to buy one without bright paint over it.

If you can visit any airsoft shop in England I am sure they will be more than happy to show you how strong it kicks[pistol] and maybe they got small range for trying stuff out so you can see straight away if you like it.

Next time your "put name" buys you something on your birthday you don't need go and exchange it for a TM pistol ;]

Look they are so sweet:
http://www.proairsoftsupplies.co.uk/acatalog/tokyo_marui_pistols.html

deadly22sniper wrote:

Back to the topic: M9's suffer somewhat from limp-wristing (from experience and what I've read). Probably not going to have that problem with .45 ACP.

I reed it is because M9 grips. Funny they made it use 9mm so smaller shooters can use it but they made grip so big that small shooters can't firmly hold the gun

It was only a matter of time before someone blew my cover! xD

i can wait, the shooting i do is rabbit, rat and wood pigeon hunting on my 300 acre permission and i use a .22" weihrauch 99s with williams aperture sight fitted.

besides airsoft involves running around which i can't do LOL !!

bounty i tried a gamo revolver pretty much the same as your picture and whilst i get it for FT pistol type comp what i really wanted to do is very high precision target stuff that the Baikal would do, but like i said i can wait

speedhound1-WYD- wrote:i can wait, the shooting i do is rabbit, rat and wood pigeon hunting on my 300 acre permission and i use a .22" weihrauch 99s with williams aperture sight fitted.

besides airsoft involves running around which i can't do LOL !!

bounty i tried a gamo revolver pretty much the same as your picture and whilst i get it for FT pistol type comp what i really wanted to do is very high precision target stuff that the Baikal would do, but like i said i can wait

With airsoft I bet that field owner will let you to come in say hi 3 times over no less than 2 months for the sake of registration and off you can go to buy your airsoft gun ...but the guns are relatively weak with just around 350fps with .20g bbs.

Also I guess you are not interested in 150lb crossbow?

That's the one I want to buy just in case zombies attack [its 175lb]



http://www.surplusstore.co.uk/bows-slingshots/black-jaguar-recurve-crossbow.html

Having shooting rights over land you surely can prove to the police that you have a "good reason" to possess a firearm.
Silenced .223 semi automatic [ar-like] rifle would be good for you and have that cool factor to it.



I just to underestimate slingshots until I found this guys channel on yt:

1. Slingshot vs. Ballistic Gelatine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9lJ5FoXrek&feature=plcp

2. Pencil shotgun https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYJ2zj1SB5Y&feature=plcp

3. Bullpup crossbow https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eu_kbfr_tdU&feature=plcp

all ofc homemade

Bonus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QcEtVTYdm4&feature=player_detailpage#t=111s

you're right i could probably get a closed FAC licence right now but i'm totally skint plus the last time the farm i shoot on had someone with a FAC he accidentally shot a cow with .17 HMR which turned out to be a very expensive vet bill so at the moment there is some reluctance to allow firearms there again, but with my good behaviour and changed income in the future who knows ?

fyi it is completely illegal to shoot any living creature in UK with any arrow or bolt so i don't have much use for a cross bow, for zombies i have a slazenger cricket bat

Why can't you bow hunt? Is it considered inhumane?

yes

You can always back it up with your own bill for loses caused by vermin's that you get every year

Alchemist wrote:With airsoft I bet that field owner will let you to come in say hi 3 times over no less than 2 months for the sake of registration and off you can go to buy your airsoft gun

Unfortunately the site has to be registered. Probably to stop exactly that.

I have a sweet little KWA Glock 19 gas blow-back, with a metal slide. Also got a TM G3SG/1 but I don't use it much; It's too bulky. Bought it when I was young and didn't know any better.

deadly22sniper wrote:
I have a sweet little KWA Glock 19 gas blow-back, with a metal slide. Also got a TM G3SG/1 but I don't use it much; It's too bulky. Bought it when I was young and didn't know any better.

KWA are kind of like TM in sens of quality but yeah they make metal guns what in case of glock is just wrong [ its a polimer construction in real] I guess I would never buy over expensive TM AEG... G&G is more my budget range but I am considering of buying one high end replica to make it my ultimate primary of it.



This is a concept gun and had only few prototypes but it has a interesting feature that "fix" problem of bullpups with ejecting shells. [notice little button on the front of ejection port...switches it to the other side ejection port]



Very good platform for every thing you can do in airsoft at 350fps. [range, range, range ...]



Btw, Speed... shooting FAL [one of my favorite battlerifles especially in short railed version]



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmJhFIPKmcc&feature=related

must been interesting experience as much as poping out mortar shells



Yeah I can imagine...



I got some experience with .22,

Iz-35


Fwb AW 93


Anschutz 525


9mm

Walter P-99


and some with .222

Iz-18MN


and little with 9.3×62mm

CZ 550 Lux

FAL was ok ish, obviously being semi auto was nice for keeping on target but the recoil was too much, some times after a couple of hundred rounds your shoulder would be black and blue, i remember the butt plate was made out of this hard plastic which seems harder than the brass one on a number 4.....

the FAL was 2800 ft-lbs ME which was right on the edge of manageable the number 4 was 2600 ft-lbs and the difference was one between looking forward to a day at the range and not to be honest.

firing mortars was erm....fun to start with ? but then you have to carry the f**kin thing which was as much fun as diarrhea.

that feinwerkbau is drop dead gorgeous