rushing of the first flag

we're on beirut right now. IDF rushed the RUS' first flag (factory). we all know how lame rushing to the first flag is (MEC rushing muttrah dock). i wanted to discuss this problem here and may there will be a new rule. its a rule on PRTA already and should be added on NWA aswel.


map: beirut, 64 (should be removed from the maplist because IDF is overpowered)

let me hear what do u think guys?


Curry.

Honestly I have to say this is kind of a "good" strategy , if the Russian aren't fast enough they are screwed !

After all it's "delaying battle" , like on Qwai when my squad (Chinese) took the first US objectives..., you are giving time to your team , and the opposition team has to be ready for this kind of attack.

I think it's more about how people see the assault than about the rules.

And IDF is not overpowered on beirut , you just have to play with good airsupport and APC when you are russian

Haven't played that map much but the problem is even if the Russian pilots get in and take off as soon as they possibly can, and IDF truck full of infantry is probably already on the docks waiting for you. It's more or less impossible to get there first in a helicopter because of the warmup time.

As far as I know it is already a rule "do not attack flag not in play" meaning if you can't cap docks (or are really close to being able to) don't go there.

It's an extremely effective and douchbaggy gamebreaking tactic.

[301]Flap32 wrote:Honestly I have to say this is kind of a "good"
strategy , if the Russian aren't fast enough they are screwed !

After
all it's "delaying battle" , like on Qwai when my squad (Chinese) took
the first US objectives..., you are giving time to your team , and the
opposition team has to be ready for this kind of attack.

I think it's more about how people see the assault than about the rules.

And IDF is not overpowered on beirut , you just have to play with good airsupport and APC when you are russian

IDF IS overpowered. there is no question. its pretty simple: on all seainvasion maps the attacking team is only so skilled as their choppers pilots (atleast at the beginning untill the team got FOB's), those are needed to get supplies (for fobs) and fresh troops to the frontline. the COW is a slow chopper and a big target. the RUS armor sucks at the first 20mins (only BRDM's getting tracked by a half IDF AR magazine). the IDF got the namer right away, (the strongest APC in PR atm).

RUS
[-] weak armor
[-] slow choppers ([-] big target / + to have choppers is always an advantage)
[-] HAT needs practise (mostly claimed by people which are on the otherside of the map or shooting in their on food)

IDF
[+] strong armor ([-] killed once its not respawning)
[+] landadvantage LOGIS
[+] fast hmmwv's

Xazper wrote:Haven't played that map much but the problem is even if the Russian pilots get in and take off as soon as they possibly can, and IDF truck full of infantry is probably already on the docks waiting for you. It's more or less impossible to get there first in a helicopter because of the warmup time.

As far as I know it is already a rule "do not attack flag not in play" meaning if you can't cap docks (or are really close to being able to) don't go there.

It's an extremely effective and douchbaggy gamebreaking tactic.

well we tried to argue with that but the nmy team just replied thats its not uncap flag. Well the repairstation is spawning there im not sure if that counts as main (muttrah, cudda, jabal, all maps with a seainvation). There are alot of maps where one team has to capture the first flag to get a repairstation (all airspawn maps, yamalia, silent eagle). in my opionion the rush of the first flag should be not allowed its killing the round. and my question are playing this game to win?

back to the round today. as we noticed that we cant capp factory so easy we're calling for help. choppers dropped friendly units in the caprange. but the namer was already waiting at NC to catch the choppers when they tried to land.

You dont have to walk directly to factory. Also waterdrops are good, chopper doesnt have to slow down too much becoase landing in water doest make that much damage.

You can also organize every INF squad to be dropped at the same time using multiple choppers.


But since russians aint THAT good, its lame.

Yes curry we frown uppon this tactic and also ask to play flag by flag as much as possible in AAS

I am totally with you on this one Curry.

I f*****g hate these pansy rushing tactics. There is no place for them in a public game.

In a match it is a legitimate tactic to rush the first flag and deny it to the enemy. But we play pub for fun not to "win at all costs". Our rules do state that you do not attack flags out of sequence. But it would seem we need to be more specific.

Providing there are no objections I will make the amendments to the rules.

Do it big V!

To Vandal

Agreed. Totaly!

not attacking enemy first flag for the first 10 mins seems a fair rule imo,ESPECIALLY on Beirut. On the other hand, skirmishing the enemy is an unorthodox and efficient tactic to buy your team some time. But on Beirut case, factory should be offlimits for at least 10 mins to have a fair game for both factions...after all,as stated here, its a pub server.

Thats losers tactic and it shouldn't be even called tactic since it relays on game inferiority not on actual maneuvers. It is not deep penetration of the front line it is simply going where you know for 100% that enm have to come from and can't go any were else based on game design not on incoming intel that was gain by any skills.

but... Do you forget that in the end we won that round ?

Ok they capped all flags before we even got our first, they really wanted to win... but they capped grey flags so when we started to cap back suddenly we were raping them of the tickets. We only had to endure some pain and pick our s**t up.

Plaing Russians on that map takes a bit creativity, so you cant just fight everywhere but you rather have to lure IDF in to your advantage positions. Make namer or tank extend so much that it can be easily picked of by havock/hat(yes there is layout where rus gets havock but more armour for idf) instead of trying to search and destroy it. Other thing is that heli can fly above clouds beyond aa/hmg reach and land on the other side of map if IDF is stacking on shore. People call for heli and expect that just like that he will get there when no effort is made to secure landing zone and approach path.
So is IDF op? I can't agree, maybe just a bit better equipped that's it.

btw: how many versions of mutrah we had to play before devs figured out a way to deny dock rush... uh a lot but if you ask anyone they say you only need to delay assets spawn... and who remember when mec had main next to fortress and getting all assets constantly raped? Rule for not attacking last flag is more realistic approach than any sort of rush will ever be. First of all how would any one know where is opposition army objective? No army will advance without knowing what they are getting themselves in to and even if they would risk that much it is not by sending group of people thousand of meters in front of main force to slow enm down by giving them targets to shot at.

With all things, it has pro's and cons.

Saying outright that you cannot attack any other flag than the ones you're supposed to cap at that point can and will slow down games a lot. It's very useful to have a squad on the next flag already (if it's not the last flag in play) to keep your enemies from rushing to your capping objective, and to have a small head start when you capped the previous point. However, since that would be considered attacking a flag out of play, it wouldn't be allowed.

I'm all for denying rushing for the first flag of your opponent though, since that is indeed just foul play. It's the main reason I don't like Muttrah. Neither on the US side or the MEC side, as I hate the rushing tactic in defense and don't like to execute it in offense.

Tarranauha200 wrote:You dont have to walk directly to factory. Also waterdrops are good, chopper doesnt have to slow down too much becoase landing in water doest make that much damage.

You can also organize every INF squad to be dropped at the same time using multiple choppers.


But since russians aint THAT good, its lame.

sry tarra but thats just bullshit. a namer is able to take down 2 COW's and make one smoking without overheating. and see if u need all sqd's to capture the first flag - there is something wrong. its so lame holding the nmy's off to cap their first flag. while a 2-man sqd is capping the flags in the background. to cap the flags ASAP u need sqd's already in caprange BEFORE the other flag is capped.

@alchemist: yes my guys told me that i rage quitted

Cheers guys,
Curry.

Dont you have like 6 choppas on russian side? I say we get one channel mumble, put some wagner on the background and attack the factory with horde of helis and BRDM`s.

Btw I hatted one COW in that round, the rocket was actyally going too high but then the COW went up and I hit it lol.

Guess this means ill have to stop rushing south bunkers on Kashan. Grrr

Jay Scott wrote:Guess this means ill have to stop rushing south bunkers on Kashan. Grrr

no! the first flag for MEC is south village. its ok to rush bunkers IMHO.

Sweet! but this might cause confusion? id say cap the first 2 in order. so it lays out for an even game?

Examples:
Muttrah City - Docks/North city.
Kashan - Village and North Bunks.
Qwia - what ever they are?
Jabal - East and west. <-- havnt played Jabal for donkeys BTW!

This could be the rule? (only attack the first to flags at the beginning of the round!)

I say we bomb the objectives with fleet of B2 stealth bombers. After that we send in recon planes to check the area. After about 30min of checking for remaining targets, 200 guys arrive in transport hueys, capping every flag at the same time. Cobras and kiowas would support this operation and take down any remaining targets.After capturing objectives, chinooks would drop tanks and other quipment to keep the area in controll.

What ya say about this plan?

Jay Scott wrote:Sweet! but this might cause confusion? id say cap the first 2 in order. so it lays out for an even game?

Examples:
Muttrah City - Docks/North city.
Kashan - Village and North Bunks.
Qwia - what ever they are?
Jabal - East and west. <-- havnt played Jabal for donkeys BTW!

This could be the rule? (only attack the first to flags at the beginning of the round!)

scotty there are maps with fixed layouts (like kashan, muttrah, asad khal) and maps with random flags so u have to decide every new round. ofc there are maps like jabal, dragon fly or ochamarichaakjhdaskldoiasudioasudoiuasoiduaosdu where the flags are not switching that much.

Curry.

curry-chicken wrote:

Jay Scott wrote:Guess this means ill have to stop rushing south bunkers on Kashan. Grrr

no! the first flag for MEC is south village. its ok to rush bunkers IMHO.

Sending squad to south bunker while other secures north is maneuvering on the front line. You don't want to bunch up with no reason. Move divided, fight united. :

Jay Scott wrote:This could be the rule? (only attack the first to flags at the beginning of the round!)

That would screw all support squads like cas spotters or engineers who need to get at some point on map.

Wouldn't be better to just forbid to perform any hostile actions or presence in general on opposing army first flag for a duration of some time or till friendly forces cap maybe half of all flags/first, simply the risk is to big but after initial scouting was made Headquarters give green light to move in deeper.

It's not like moving around map is bad, its just that armies should progress accordingly to clash on the front line, scout, establish solid supply routs by smartly building forward outposts and not wasting assets mindlessly. Shooting down helis full of troops at start flag takes maybe 40-90 tickets from 600...what a cheep shot and often there is not much pilot can do about that but it also makes aggressive team think they wining because there was no resistance when they capped one flag after another, foolishly neglecting supply routes, usually relaying only on one far forward outpost team is like all in(victory or death). As soon as the first push gets broken and they loose heavy assets all rest of that empire crumble in dust. Just then they produce fobs right on flags running in chaos but it is already too late. Rushing last flag is disrupting both teams so it seems.

ok i've read the whole thread, and generally i find its the maps fault, beirut is a special case, any rule that tries to limit combat area of operations is imo to be strongly resisted. rushing. sorry but it is perfectly legitimate, the obvious back story for muttrah for instance is that the MEC KNOW the 'mericans are invading wit guns and sh*t, in fact if your team is a bit more mature than normal the team can rush>get>consolidate north city and why not, btw rushing docks fails 99% of the time..PR was and is never meant to be symmetrical warfare, teams often have weapons, secrets, or geographical advantages, if you start to make rules to try and make PR some how more symmetrical i think your going down an avenue that will give increasingly smaller returns. personally i've always been in favour of simply not putting beirut in the map rotation, if you think its bad now remember when the Russian main used to be in docks, say no more...as far as i'm concerned when the chopper lands your safety is off, which i'm sure is more real than a defending force saying "o well, its cricket after all, let them get a foot hold on our land, who knows perhaps they'll pay rent ?". hopefully AAS4 might make sense of this confused map, lets see.

Hey, I like wining too but its not about making game symmetrical, its about making it realistic and I know for some it does not matter.

Your magical full of intel map tells you where enmy is advancing by just pressing m and you need awesome skills to read from any map what flag enm have to cap first, I understand that. But in reality how would you know if the first objective of the Rus isn't TV station? You get that knowledge not from anything else but the fact that you played the map before.

It would be so cool if gray objective wouldn't show on map until they are next from active one and there would be 3-4 random start flags but I agree that we shouldn't make rules to extensive, as limiting freedom on battlefield can be bad. On the other hand Speed why than limiting mortars from attacking main base area, huh? Let the team who makes their mortars first win! It's not cricket after all ...or is it?

And to remove beirut because we can't make one simple rule is like saying devs are gods and we can do nothing when they fail.

Alchemist wrote:But in reality how would you know if the first objective of the Rus isn't TV station? You get that knowledge not from anything else but the fact that you played the map before.

It would be so cool if gray objective wouldn't show on map until they are next from active one and there would be 3-4 random start flags

This is a great idea, it happens with cache's so why not with flags? Imo, it would make for some great dynamic rounds, different every time. Making recon squads actually useful, instead of everyone just looking at flag locations and knowing where the enemy will be. I reckon its worth suggesting that on PR forums alchy

The rule stating we must attck flags in sequence was put in place because of lame tactics like "Bum Rushing".

The point is we are trying operate a fun, fair, balanced server for all players on all teams. Rushing the first flag may be a legitimate tactic but it does not fit into the fun, fair, balanced ethos.

A lot of times this does end up being the undoing of the rushing team as they do not give themselves adequate support ie fobs.
But I think it has a negative effect on the team attempting to cap their first flag more.

We are not here to debate real world tactics or decide wot the Army would do. It's a game it's supposed to be fun. The rules will be changed slightly to state that bum rushing the first flag is not permitted.